My last Blog on Penny is here. That was prior to ThruLines. I also wrote a Blog on Penny’s sister Toni here. Toni’s DNA is not linked to her tree, so she does not have ThruLines.
Penny is in red in the lower left. She descends for William Fitzgerald Frazer. This tree is based on research by Frazer researcher, Joanna.
William Fitzgerald Frazer Born 1821 Ireland
I am interested in William Fitzgerald Frazer:
Penny mentions a biography in her Ancestry Tree:
This was from An illustrated history of Sacramento County, California. Containing a history of Sacramento County from the earliest period of its occupancy to the present time published in 1890. Penny further gives this chronology for William:
This raises questions as to the mother of the first three children. Penny also mentions another daughter Angelina G Frazer as mentioned in William’s will. She is named as Angeline G Law. That gives a hint:
In 1911, Angelina is listed as Gracella. I assume that was her middle name:
This puts William Fitzgerald in Leitrim in the 1840’s. Here is another interesting record:
In this record Angelina “Gracenda” is listed as Augustine. Here is Angelina’s wedding publication from 1872 – not long after her father’s divorce:
This more specifically puts William in Drumkeerin:
That means that William Fitzgerald Frazer lived in Drumkeeran. He had Angelina Gracenda around 1843. His second daughter appears to have been Mary Ann Frazer. Penny has her born in 1844.
Mary Ann Frazer
Mary Ann married in 1864:
About a year later, these two were living in Poughkeepsie, New York:
Thomas Quinton may be William’s father. Margaret Frazier is Mary A’s sister. Poughkeepsie is on the Hudson River:
How Can the DNA Help Us?
Right now on the James side of the Frazer Tree, descendants have been placed into two main branches:
There is an Archibald Branch on the left where Penny is. There is a Michael Branch on the right. There is an Elizabeth branch in the middle also. However, her daughter Catherine Knott married Archibald believed to be the son of Michael on the right side. We can use the DNA matches to test the genealogies above. First, I try to see if the DNA supports that the people within the box on the left match each other. Then I see if they match the people in the box on the right at the appropriate levels.
Penny’s first cousin level ThruLines are good:
89% of the time Penelope’s match with Pamela should be a 1st cousin once removed or similar relationship:
Penny’s ThruLines with William Fitzgerald Frazer
At Penny’s Frazer great grandparent level there are no new ThruLines. There are some at the 2nd great-grandparent level:
These matches are from the descendants of Mary Ann Frazer. I’ll start a chart for Penn y:
Penny and Frazer Third Great-grandfather ThruLines
This part goes beyond Penny’s Ancestry Tree to work that Frazer reasearcher Joanna has done:
Here there are 7 matches to Penny on the Thomas Henry Frazer Line. Joanna has that Thomas Henry Frazer was born in Drumkeerin, so there is that connection. Joanna is on the Edward F Frazer Branch. I should point out that Penny has no matches on the Edward Wynn Branch:
Edward Wynn is the brother in the middle group above.
Penny’s Distant ThruLines
When I put the common ancestor up two more generations to James Frazer born about 1720, I pick up two additional matches for Penny:
These two matches were recently added under Michael to explain DNA matches. It would make sense that Penny could match these two, as the theory is that Mary married William Frazer:
Adding Penny’s ThruLines to Madeline’s and Charlotte’s
Although Penny doesn’t share any ThruLine matches with Madeline and Charlotte, they both match some of the same matches as shown in blue below:
I think that Charlotte’s match to JS above is really Janet. The question is: if Penny, Charlotte and Madeline have many of the same ThruLines, then why doesn’t Penny match Charlotte and Madeline? I suppose there could be many explanations:
The common ancestor is Archibald born 1792. Charlotte and Madeline may be related on the Archibald side and Penny may be related on Archibald’s wife’s side. That would result in Penny not matching Charlotte and Madeline.
Another variation of that is that Archibald may have had more than one wife. Penny may descend from one wife and Charlotte and Madeline from another.
It may be that we have the genealogy wrong.
There may be other connections on collateral lines.
Adding In Joanna
If I add in Joanna to the mix, I’ll have representatives from the three brothers:
These are William Fitzgerald, Edward Wynn Frazer and Thomas Henry Frazer (Joanna’s great-grandfather). Here is a partial list of Joanna’s ThruLines:
I’m more interested in the matches at the third cousin level. Here we have the two brothers plus Ann. The third brother doesn’t show here as he shows at the 2nd cousin level for Joanna. For some reason, the ThruLines seemed to skip a generationbetween William Fitzgerald 1821 and Minnie Jane born 1895. I have written quite a bit about the McPartland Branch. They have the Ancestor Ann Frazer who has been difficult to place. Joanna has made a guess that she was the daughter of her 2nd great-grandfather Archibald born 1792. I have been going back and forth as to whether Ann should be under Archibald or Michael Frazer.
Another interesting point is that Edward Archibald born 1867 ended up in Poughkeepsie, NY where Mary A Frazer Quinton and Margaret Jane Frazer lived in 1855. I don’t know if this is a coincidence or not.
I see that Joanna matches WG. WG is on the Edward Wynn Branch where Madeline and Charlotte are. Joanna has a good match with WG but Madeline and Charlotte do not. This may be a coincidence, but I would keep my eye on this situation. For Charlotte and Madeline the level that they match WG indicates a second cousin once removed only <1% of the time:
In this Blog I would like to look at Bonnie’s ThruLInes. Here is Bonnie on my Frazer DNA and genealogy chart:
I circled Beverly as I already looked at her ThruLines here. It took two Blogs to write about Beverly’s ThruLines. The connection of Beverly and Bonnie to Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott above is quite certain. However, one other Frazer researcher has the connection after that going up to a different Frazer couple:
Bonnie’s Frazer ThruLines
Bonnie’s ThruLines are based on her genealogy going up to Michael and Margaret Frazer. That could cause some bias toward that outcome, but we will see.
Bonnie’s ThruLines with her second cousins are not in question, but it is always good to go from the known to the unknown in genealogy:
Bonnie’s Third Cousin ThruLInes
At this level three additional people are added:
I mentioned Beverly above. Then there are two more people from the Catherine Frazer Line. Bonnie’s tree has Catherine as Catherine Peyton Frazer, but Frazer researcher Joanna points out that the Peyton is not correct as that is from a different Catherine Frazer. Someone added a photo of Catherine Frazer’s daughter Rachel Patton from NO’s ancestry:
LO and NO are from two different lines as Catherine Frazer married a Pattison (aka Patterson) who died. She then married a Patton.
Here are Bonnie’s ThruLines so far in a chart:
This means that Bonnie’s match with Gary and Judith indicate a second cousin match 62% of the time. Bonnie’s match with Beverly indicates that her 39 cM match indicates a third cousin 13% of the time. It would have been more likely for the two of them to be fourth cousins. 22% of the time a 39 cM match indicates a 4th cousin relationship. That means that they don’t have the most likely match level for third cousins, but still a likely match.
Bonnie’s Third Great-Grandparents
Here is something I had not considered:
At this point, Bonnie has another likely Frazer ancestor in Elizabeth Frazer. This makes life confusing. According to Frazer researcher Joanna, Catherine Knott was either a daughter or niece of William Knott and Elizabeth Frazer. The scenario showing in ThruLines has Catherine as a daughter. Another point is that Michael and Elizabeth Frazer were siblings. Looking at ThruLines by way of William Knott and Elizabeth Frazer do not add any more matches.
Here Bonnie has six additional matches.
Bonnie appears to have strong ties with the Patrick Henry Line of Frazers. This is good based on the fact that there are records for a both a Patrick and a Fitzgerald born to a Michael and Margaret Frazer:
14 Dec1803 b. Patrick s. of Michael and Margaret Eastersnow
16 Dec1803 bpt. Patrick s. of Michael and Margaret Eastersnow
2 Apr 1804 b. Fitzgerald s. of Michael and Margaret Eastersnow
5 Apr 1804 bpt. Fitzgerald s. of Michael and Margaret Eastersnow
Frazer researcher Michael was fortunate to find such early birth and baptismal records from Eastersnow Parish in North County Roscommon. However, it is curious as to how these two children were born less than four months apart from each other.
Mary is a new addition to the Frazer DNA/Genealogy Chart. Joanna added her in to explain DNA matches to descendants of Catherine Matilda Fraser. Frazer researcher Joanna made an educated guess that Mary Frazer married William Frazer shown below:
That translates to these two ThruLine matches for Bonnie:
Bonnie’s ThruLines with James Frazer and a Surprising Match
Here are Bonnie’s ThruLines up to her 4th great-grandfather. Bonnie has five matches. The surprising one is with Brittney:
Brittney and Bonnie have a 60 cM match which is very high for a 5th cousin once removed. AncestryDNA only gives statistics up to 5th cousin. According to the ISOGG web page, 60 cM is not unheard of for fifth cousins once removed:
Here are the matches charted out:
What if Bonnie Was In the Tree of Archibald Frazer and Catherine Peyton?
I mentioned early in this Blog that at least one researcher has Archibald Frazer and Catherine Peyton as the parents of Bonnie’s ancestors Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott. It would be possible for me to test out what would happen if we put Bonnie there.
That scenario would replace Archibald born about 1792 above with Archibald Frazer and Catherine Knott. The effect is that Bonnie would be more closely related to those on the Frazer/Peyton Line and further related to those on the Michael and Margaret Frazer Line. There is no need to change Bonnie’s ancestry to see what ThruLines will do. I think that this would be the result. The original analysis is first and the new one second:
It appears that Bonnie’s original genealogy has a slight edge based on the ThruLines. In the analysis above, she has four rows of green where she has the highest probability for the relationship. In the analysis below she has two. I added up the probabilities for each scenario. In the original scenario, the percentages added up to 215. In the alternate scenario, Bonnie gets a 211. There is not much difference there. This analysis quantifies my previous observations that the matches between the Archibald Line and the Michael Lines are pretty even.
Comparing Bonnie’s and Beverly’s ThruLines
Beverly and Bonnie are third cousins. I had written two Blogs on Beverly’s ThruLines, but they have since changed. Also, it appears that Beverly’s DNA may not have been attached properly. I have her mother as Edith Frazer. In the ThruLines below, Edith shows incorrectly as Beverly’s grandmother:
That means that Beverly would be a second great Aunt to Krista and Jordan rather than a 1st cousin twice removed. Also, I show Beverly’s maternal grandfather as Fitzgerald – not Alexander Frazer:
Apparently there was an Alexander with a daughter Edith but not Beverly’s Edith. Beverly’s Frazer side was from the Parry Sound area of Ontario:
For further out ThruLines, the tree corrects itself somehow. Here Fitzgerald Frazer is correctly shown as Beverly’s grandfather:
Here is my new summary for Beverly’s Frazer ThruLines:
Mollie is in a pink color. Her ThruLine has gone away since my last Blog on Beverly. This is good because I couldn’t explain how her Robert McMaster ancestor fit in. The yellow matches are new since my last Blog on Beverly’s ThruLines.
Combining Beverly’s and Bonnie’s ThruLines
A few observations:
Beverly has 21 Frazer ThruLines compared to Bonnie’s 14.
Bonnie and Beverly don’t share many ThruLine matches. I am not sure why that is or whether they should. They both share Brittney who is the most distant relative.
The numbers seem good for the relationships. This tells me that the DNA evidence supports the trees we have.
Under the Michael and Margaret Frazer common ancestors, there is a good mix of matches from their children: 8 for Patrick (who is the same as Henry Patrick); 6 for Margaret Frazer; 2 for Mary (recently added in as a hypothesis) and one for Fitzgerald.
I didn’t do the reverse analysis for Beverly that I did for Bonnie. That was the using the assumption that the 4th cousin matches descended from Archibald of Tullynure rather than Michael Frazer. One of the problems I find with that assumption is that it does not account well genealogically for the many DNA matches that have been considered. In other words, all these Frazer descendants came from somewhere and under the alternate assumption, it is unclear how these people would fit in.
Summary and Conclusions
In this Blog, I looked at Bonnie’s ThruLines.
Bonnie’s ThruLines support the tree we have for her descending from Michael and Margaret Frazer.
I did an analysis of what the DNA matches would look like if Bonnie descended from a different Frazer Line. The matches were close but not as good as for her descending from the Michael Frazer Line. Also I didn’t like the genealogy for Bonnie being in a different Frazer Line as I couldn’t see how everyone else could fit in with her being there.
Next, I did and update for Beverly’s ThruLines. Beverly and Bonnie are third cousins.
Beverly had more matches than Bonnie. Her matches were consistent with Bonnie’s.
It helped to combine the two results. This method should work in other lines.
Someone signed me up for the Scottish DNA Facebook Page. Probably because I administer a Frazer DNA Project. The Scottish DNA Facebook Page has a Matchbox utility which I had never used until now. The administrators checked the people who hadn’t used it and put out a request for Scottish DNA members to run matchbox. Their interest got me to act.
My Scottish Matchbox Matches
My grandmother was a Frazer. That is Scottish, but her ancestors since the 1700’s at least lived in Ireland. That means that I am potentially up to 25% Scottish. However, I would think it possible that I could match other members of the Scottish DNA Facebook Page on non-Scottish Lines. I ended up with 21 matches.
I had run Matchbox at the Newfoundland Gedmatch Facebook Page before, so I was a little familiar with it. Still, it took a little while to figure out how to use it. The Facebook Name on the right is to identify Scottish DNA members so they can be tagged. Then they will know that someone matches them or a DNA kit they administer.
Jane at Scottish DNA Matchbox
I match with Jane at the above Matchbox match list about halfway down the list. I have looked at Jane’s DNA quite a bit as she is part of the Frazer DNA Project that I administer. In fact, due to intermarriage, we match on two different Frazer Lines:
I’m not in the next Frazer Branch shown:
Jane is in this Archibald Frazer/Stinson Branch. The place where we match is one level up. Our common ancestor is another Archibald Frazer.
Here is my DNA match with Jane:
I have mapped out my DNA. Here is my Chromosome 12:
I am the third sibling down (Joel). My match with Jane is to the right side of the Chromosome where I am clearly Frazer on my paternal side.
I also triangulate with Jane and other people from the Richard Frazer Branch on Chromosome 12:
Green in the box indicates a triangulating DNA match. This indicates that our common ancestor is Richard Frazer and his unknown wife. As expected, the DNA match is not with the more distant (to me) Archibald Frazer/Stinson Branch.
Top Matchbox Match Sharon
Sharon is at the top of my list above. When I run the one to one for Sharon, the match is not as close as it looks on the overall list:
Sharon and I have two smaller matches on Chromosomes 9 and 10.
At the start of my Chromosome 9, I have mapped myself as (orange) Hartley:
That means a non-Scottish match as my Hartley ancestors were from Lancashire, England.
However, at the right end of my Chromosome 10, I have Frazer DNA:
Hartley Matches: Babe, Neil, Cindy and Teckie
To make sure, I run my match against my paternal side phased kit at Gedmatch and get this match with Babe:
Unfortunately, on this part of my Chromosome 10, I have Hartley DNA also:
Neil on my match list also shows as under my Hartley DNA, but on Chromosome 1. Cindy maps to my Hartley side on Chromosome 15. Teckie is a Hartley match on Chromosome 16.
Matchbox Amy, Donna, Greene, WTD, Joan and John: Neither Here Nor There
I show a match with Any, but when I look for her on my phased paternal and maternal DNA match lists at Gedmatch, I can’t find her. That must mean that her match got phased out. So far, other than Jane, nothing is panning out.
I get the same thing for Donna further down the list. Here is what her non-phased match looked like:
I got similar results for Greene, WTD, Joan and John.
Gary and Elizabeth: Non-Scottish Match
These two appear to be related. Here is my match with Gary:
Here is a broken match. I have Chromosome 9 mapped as Hartley for myself, so I’ll rule this out also as a Scottish match. Elizabeth is about the same match, but only the second part of the match above.
Elizabeth #2: Genuine Scottish
The second Elizabeth on my list has DNA in the area of the Jane I mentioned above who shares Frazer ancestry with me:
I take that as a good sign. If Jane and Elizabeth match each other, that means that we have triangulation. Here is how Jane and Elizabeth match each other:
My guess is that Elizabeth’s ancestry goes back to the Frazers in Roscommon, Ireland.
Sallee, MPS, Jane and Shannon Match on Chromosome 20
Sallee, MPS, Jane and Shannon match on an area of Chromosome 20 that is mapped to my Frazer side. Unfortunately, I have what I consider to be an overmatch area on Chromosome 20 with hundreds of matches. Here is my match with Sallee:
These matches may be significant, but due to the number of matches I have, it would take a lot of work to analyze these matches. Plus the number of matches that I have make me skeptical as to the quality of the matches.
The Jane I mention above is the 2nd Jane on my list.
Jean: Genuine Scottish DNA
Here is my match with Jean:
I have all Frazer (blue) DNA on my Chromosome 22:
My Match with Bear on Chromosome 6
I have all Frazer DNA on Chromosome 6. Here is the match:
This match is in an area I have mapped to my Clarke and Spratt ancestors who lived in County Sligo:
Let’s see if Bear matches Stephen:
As expected, they match and triangulate.
Here is how Stephen matches me:
All the Matchbox matches were either on my paternal side or false DNA matches.
Paternal – 71%
Unphased (false matches) 29%
Of the paternal matches more came out on my Frazer Scottish side than my Hartley non-Scottish side: 9 Frazer and 7 Hartley. My match with Sharon was on both sides.
Two of the matches triangulated with known matches that have known genealogical connections to me. These were with Elizabeth and Bear and would be worth following up on.
Two of the Frazer side DNA matches were in chromosome areas where I had no identified Frazer matches.
Four matches were from Chromosome 20 where I have hundreds of matches that I cannot identify.
Summary and Conclusions
Use your phased results if they are available. When I did this, I found that 29% of my matches fell out as false matches.
If you have mapped your DNA, use that information. That will further eliminate matches that you are not looking for.
9 out of 21 or 43% of my Matchbox matches were along my Frazer (Scottish) grandparent side
If you have existing identified matches with Scottish background, check to see if there is triangulation with those matches to determine common ancestors.
These results are based on my own genealogy where only one of my grandparents has Scottish background.
As I go through my wife’s Aunt Esther’s DNA matches at Ancestry, I came upon Tracy.
According to AncestryDNA, Tracy and Esther could be second cousins or closer.
Here is Tracy’s Ancestry Tree:
I am interested in Tracy’s Halfyard maternal side. I built this tree:
I am interested in Margaret Jane Upshall. Perhaps she will fit into Esther’s tree. The records are not good for Harbour Buffett where many of the Upshalls lived.
Henry Upshall Born About 1841 and Catherine Dicks
Esther descends from Henry Upshall and Catherine Dicks:
Esther is a half-sister to my wife’s grandmother Florence:
This is an Upshall DNA tree. These people have had their DNA tested and match each other.
Jessie Upshall Born 1886
A while back, I came across Karen who descends from Jessie Upshall. By DNA and name it seemed like Jessie would have to be another daughter of Henry and Catherine Upshall:
Karen’s DNA matches to Esther, Joan and Elaine were perfect for her being a 1st cousin twice removed to Esther. I could see no other explanation other than Jessie Kate Upshall was a daughter of Henry Upshall. I added her to the tree even though the records were missing from Harbour Buffett due to a church fire.
Now Tracy has an Uphall great-grandmother born in 1874. Perhaps Margaret Jane Upshall could be another daughter of Henry and Catherine Upshall.
Adding Tracy to the Henry Upshall Tree
I’ll add Tracy in to see how she fits:
If my guess is right, Tracy is:
1st cousin twice removed to Esther
2nd cousin once removed to Joan and Elaine
3rd cousin to Marie, Joanne and Karen
3rd cousin, once removed to Tina
I administer the DNA for Esther, Joan, Elaine and Marie, so I can check those DNA matches.
Esther gets a low score for being a first cousin twice removed to Tracy because she matches by more DNA than expected. Based on their high DNA match, Ancestry would rather see them as 1st cousins once removed. That means that by chance Esther and Tracy share more DNA than average or it could mean that Esther and Joan share ancestries from other branches.
Karen’s Mom Shirley
Karen’s mom Shirley has also tested at Ancestry:
Shirley has perfect textbook matches to Esther, Joan, Elaine and Marie. They get the highest possible scores for these three different levels of relationships.
Summary and Conclusions
I think that it would be safe to add Tracy to the Henry Upshall Branch of Upshalls based on close DNA matches to Esther and her family.
The DNA matches between Tracy and Esther’s family are a little closer than expected. It is possible that there are other family connections further out.
If Tracy uploads her DNA to Gedmatch, it would be possible to do more detailed DNA analysis.
If Karen shares her mother’s DNA results with me, I would be able to see how closely Shirley matches Tracy. That would further solidify the Upshall Family Tree.
Esther is my wife’s 1/2 great Aunt and has Newfoundland Ancestry on both sides. AncestryDNA’s ThruLines takes DNA matches and matches those up with Ancestry Tree matches. Let’s take a look at Esther’s ThruLines to see what they show.
Here are Esther’s Parents:
Here are the ThruLines for Fred Upshall:
These people are not related on the Shave side, so the relationships show correctly as half relationships. These people are my mother in law, Joan, her sister Elaine, my wife Marie and Marie’s niece Tina. These four should show up in Esther’s more distant Upshall side ThruLines.
Very quickly, Esther is back to 1841 with her Upshall grandfather. I am more interested in the Upshall and Dicks side as that is the side where my wife and her mother are related.
Here are the Henry Upshall ThruLines:
On the right is Karen. I have written Blogs about her family. I put her great-grandmother Jessie as the daughter of Henry Upshall based on DNA evidence even though there was no genealogical evidence. This was a bit dicey, but based on the amount of DNA shared between Esther and Karen, it seems like the right thing to do. According to Ancestry DNA, that amount of shared DNA is most likely to be a 1st cousin, twice removed relationship:
Nicholas and Esther
How does Nicholas fit in? For one thing, 1st cousin four times removed goes right off the chart:
I would think that a 1st cousin four times removed would be similar to the 2nd cousin once removed. Either way, the chances of this being right are <1% according to AncestryDNA.
Here is the expanded view of ThruLines:
One problem is that Nicholas’ parents and grandparents are shown as living, so I don’t have information on them. Nicholas’ tree is managed by Kara. She has Gladys Uppshall Knight as Nicholas’ maternal great-grandmother. From there, Stephanie’s tree kicks in with Theodore the father of Gladys.
Here is the 1935 Census for St John’s West:
The assumption is that this is the same Gladys in 1945:
Here is a replacement birth record for Malcolm:
This shows that Malcolm’s mother was a Shave. That makes it more surprising that Esther and Nicholas don’t have more matching DNA as Esther’s mother was a Shave.
Here is another after the fact record for Malcolm’s brother:
This could be William in the 1945 Census living next to his brother:
Was Alexander the Son of Henry Upshall?
I have it that way on my Ancestry Tree, but not on my Upshall Web Page. I don’t see any genealogical evidence that would put Alexander as the son of Henry Upshall. It is that way in some on-line Trees. Based on the low amount of DNA match and the shaky genealogical evidence, I would call into question this particular ThruLine at this time.
Esther’s Upshall Great-Grandparents
Here, things get more interesting as there is no known genealogical evidence for Esther’s great-grandparents. These ancestors are a best guess scenario. Here are the ThruLines for best-guess Peter Upshall:
At first look, it seems as though there are a lot of different DNA matches for these likely children of Peter Upshall.
George Upshall Branch 1829
Here, note that Pat, like Nicholas has Shave and Upshall in her ancestry. I note she also has Burton which Eshter has, so perhaps other names also. 280 cM is a huge match for a 2nd cousin twice removed:
Ancestry says that Pat and Esther look like 2nd cousins. However, that is assuming that they are not related on other lines which they are. For comparison, I had mentioned above that Nicholas’ match to Esther should have been equivalent to a 2nd cousin once removed. Another thing I’d like to do is to see if these people have shared matches with each other. I note that Nicholas does not have a shared match with Pat. That means that he shares less than 20 cM with Pat.
Checking with Joan and Elaine
One way to check these matches is by Joan and Elaine. They are Esther’s half nieces. That means that they match on the Upshall side and not the Shave side. Here is what Joan shows:
Now the DNA matches are quite a bit different. When I look at the numbers for Joan and her sister Elaine, I get this for the proposed George Upshall Branch:
Sarah Upshall Branch 1831
Here Esther has 10 DNA matches on the Sarah Upshall Collett Branch:
Here are the results for Eshter, Joan and Elaine:
I added in a Maximum % column, so we could see what the highest likelihood is for the DNA match
Green indicates that the DNA matches got that highest mark
This seems to indicate that Esther does not match this Sarah Upshall Collett on other lines.
None of the numbers seem unreasonable. The <1% can be explained by matching on many other lines and getting too high of a match.
Joan and Elaine match Sarah and Esther doesn’t. That means that Florence (who is Joan and Elaine’s mother) got DNA that her sister Esther did not.
Esther went off the chart with the 2nd cousin 4 times removed category.
To do this right, I would need to check all the genealogy. I didn’t. The genealogy is likely good up to the children of Peter and Margaret Upshall and then missing.
All these numbers seem to confirm that the trees are likely trees.
Jane Upshall Branch
Jane appears to be well documented by DNA. Esther has 14 matches to Jane’s descendants along the Tulk Line. I have noted close matches to Tulk in the past, so this may explain those DNA matches.
Jane also has a rare Upshall birth record:
However, I find it odd that she was born in November and baptized in September. Perhaps she was born in 1838. I assume that there was only one Peter and Margaret Upshall at the time. Burin was about 90 miles away from Harbour Buffett, so I assume there was a travelling minister who performed these baptisms on 29 September 1839. I have that Jane was born in Burin which is not accurate. She was born in Garnish Gut according to this record. I’m not sure where Garnish Gut is, but I assume that it is part of or near Harbour Buffett.
An additional confusing point is that Peter was the father of Christopher Upshall also in 1833:
This means that Peter may have had a first wife Mary or the transcription may have been off. Christopher doesn’t show up on the ThruLines. I don’t see many trees for Christopher. Here is one:
This person shows Margaret as the mother and the birth at Famish Gut which perhaps makes more sense. Perhaps there were few descendants on this line.
So far the matches for the descendants of the three potential children of Peter and Margaret Upshall looks like this:
The evidence looks pretty good. I added Karen from the more recent Henry Upshall Line to show how good her numbers were.
My Mother was Lillian Florence May Hollett who was born in Montreal, but her father was Samuel Hollett from Spensers Cove Placentia Bay NL.
My father was Cecil Llewelyn Upshall, born in Harbour Buffett NL.
Can you give me any information on either of those backgrounds?
This could be the couple in 1945:
Cecil was born in Placentia and Lillie in Canada according to this Census. Here is Grand Falls where the couple were in 1945:
The 1921 Census
This gives some more information. Cecil’s parents were Isaac and Rebecca. Cecil’s grandmother was Lizzie Hann from Harbour Buffett. Here is the marriage record for Isaac and Rebecca:
Isaac was a fisherman. Both Isaac and Rebecca were living in Harbour Buffet at the time of their marriage. Before this, the genealogy gets a little shaky:
Martha shows that Isaac’s parents were Peter and Hannah. Martha has this further information:
Martha has Peter dying in Kingwell:
Here is the tree I have for my wife:
My wife’s ancestor Henry Upshall was born around 1841. Perhaps Peter was a brother or other relative to Henry.
Shirley’s Hollett Side
So far Shirley’s tree looks like this:
Here is the marriage record for Samuel and May:
This couple married in a Methodist Church in Montreal. Samuel was a carpenter and his parents were John and Susan Butcher. It appears that Samuel was born at Sound Island in 1860.
This is not too far from Spencers Cove.
Records have his death at Botwood:
Botwood is to the Northeast of Grand Falls. Samuel is listed as 84 years old in 1944. The number next to the cause of death is for something else. He shows as being born in Burin. This record for another Hollett birth appears to tie things together:
This shows that Sound Island was in the District and Parish of Burin. I was not aware of this connection previously:
Sound Island and Burin appear to be about 100 miles away from each other. It is a good thing that the Holletts were Methodists as those records appear to have survived better than some of the other records.
Here is the tree that I have for Shirley:
Due to missing records, it may be helpful for Shirley to take a DNA test. This could help to solidify existing connections and perhaps suggest some new connections.
I match Matthew at AncestryDNA. In fact, AncestryDNA calls it a very high DNA match. Ancestry further says that they think I have a 99% chance of finding shared ancestors with Matthew. I took that as a challenge. I messaged Matthew and he gave me enough information to get started on a tree:
Matthew’s Frazer Genealogy
I was interested in Matthew’s Frazer side as that is where we must match:
Matthew gave me the name of his father and of his grandmother. That was enough to get going. From there I found his Frazer grandfather who was born in Manitoba, Canada. From there others have created Frazer trees that I can use:
Now I am getting into familiar territory with George and Susan Frazer:
Here is George Frazer and Susannah with four boys. Here is my list of children for George and Susannah:
It looks as though Ellen and Margaret died young. My guess is that the four youngest boys could be the ones in the photo above.
Next, I’ll put Matthew on my own Frazer DNA/Genealogy Chart:
This shows that Matthew is my 4th cousin twice removed. He is also Gladys’ 1st cousin three times removed.
One Tree Leads To Another
Speaking of Gladys, she has shared DNA matches with Matthew. One of their shared matches is Sandra. Here is Sandra and her paternal tree:
I’ll add Sandra also to my DNA/genealogy tree:
Sandra is Gladys’ 1st cousin once removed.
ND Helps Fill Out the George Frazer Branch
Gladys and Sandra have a shared DNA match with ND:
One interesting thing is that I match Matthew by more DNA than I match Sandra or ND. I match Matthew by 49 cM across three segments. If I match Sandra or ND it would have to be by less than 20 cM as that is the limit for shared matches.
Summary and Conclusions
By using Matthew’s hints, I was able to convert our DNA match into a family tree.
Matthew’s DNA match adds to the existing DNA matches from the Richard Price Frazer and George Harvey Frazer Branches
By looking at shared matches between Matthew and Gladys, I was able to add Sandra and ND onto the James Clarence Frazer Branch.
I have known about matching Whitney for a while, but I didn’t know how she fit in. Whitney and I have a sizeable DNA match spread out over four different DNA segments:
According to AncestryDNA, Whitney’s match is in the Very High Range:
That means that I should have a 99% chance of finding our common ancestors – assuming I can figure out the genealogy.
Whitney’s Frazer Ancestry
Here is Whitney’s tree at Ancestry:
Here is the tree I am building out for Whitney:
I had been working on this tree for a while and thought I should be looking at Whitney’s Masters side. However, today, I took an educated guess on her Cain side and came up with a Frazer. It looks like Whitney’s maternal grandfather’s mother was Elizabeth Frazer Cain.
Elizabeth Frazer was born in Boston to Richard Frazer – a cook. I know that some of my Frazer relatives were cooks, and I had a Frazer relative named Richard, so that sounds promising. Here is the Richard Frazer family from my Frazer web page:
Richard was my great grandfather’s younger brother. This is my guess for Richard:
Richard’s wife was from Freedom, New Hampshire and this photo was taken in New Hampshire.
Here is Whitney in my DNA/Frazer Genealogy Chart:
Whitney fills in the DNA from Richard Frazer. Whitney and I are third cousins once removed. Here is how my Richard Branch looks like now at Ancestry:
Summary and Conclusion
I was only a step away from finding a Frazer link with Whitney and didn’t realize it.
According to AncestryDNA, there was a 99% chance that we had findable common ancestors. All I had to do was to find them.
If Whitney uploads her DNA to Gedmatch, I will be able to do more comparisons with other Frazer and McMaster cousins.
It is likely that my addition of the Cain family to my Ancestry Tree will result in new ThruLines. These are lines that are highlighted at Ancestry due to common ancestry and DNA matches.
OK, here is the situation. I administer Gladys’ DNA kit for an Irish Frazer Project. Occasionally, I get requests because people find matches to Gladys’ non-Frazer side. Gladys is not easy to get in touch with, so I’ll give a shot at finding Jonn’s connection to Gladys. Here is the note I got from Jonn:
Hi I’m doing research into my family history and you’ve come up in my results. Just wondering if we could make contact as I’m trying to find the name of my Mystery Great Grandad on my fathers side, who fathered my Grandad Frederick Davis Fassam (Fassam being the mother’s maiden name). On his Baptism his father was labelled Frederick Edmund Fassam but we believe that’s a made up name as the father was unknown as far as we’re aware. Most likely linking nameare Beard, Scott, Davy, Stone or Bobitt and the area of origin is likely to be West Ham in London, Essex or Cambridgeshire or Lancashire I think for the periods 1800-1910 Anyway, if you’re happy to, I’d love to hear from you and see if we could potentially identify our connection. Look forward to hopefully hear from you.
I found out that Jonn matches Gladys at Gedmatch. I further found out that Jonn tested at Ancestry and has a tree there:
This is Jonn’s paternal side. He has just his mother listed as private on the maternal side. This makes me wonder how we can know if Gladys’ match with Jonn is on his maternal or paternal side. Then, if the match is on Jonn’s paternal side, how do we know if the match is on the paternal grandmother or grandfather side?
Let’s look at Gladys’ tree.
I’m related to Gladys through James Frazer and Violet Frazer. I would rule those two out as they were from Ireland and Jonn is looking for someone in England. That still leaves a lot of potential. Ephraim Webber and Mary Jury on Gladys’ maternal side were from Devon, England. Seems like I found the right country, wrong region.
Here is Ephraim in 1861 in Chawleigh or Chawley:
This got me back a little further:
Gladys’ and Jonn’s Shared Matches at AncestryDNA
Gladys and Jonn are predicted 4th to 6th cousins at AncestryDNA. That means that the connection could be out quite far. Gladys and Jonn have four shared DNA matches at AncestryDNA:
Has the same last name as Jonn, but it could be her married name and a coincidence. She shows her father from Lymington, Hampshire, England
Her paternal grandfather is from Australia. That could indicate English heritage, but I didn’t trace the genealogy back.
Has a one person tree
Has a linked 6 person tree. The mother and father are both from Devon, England.
On the limited information that I have the DNA connection could be through Devon. However, it may not be on Jonn’s line that he is looking for.
Gladys’ and Jonn’s Shared Matches at Gedmatch
I found a close match to Gladys who shares a match with Jonn:
The first row is Gladys’ match to herself. The second row is the one I am interested in. The match to Gladys is 252.8 cM and to Jonn is 22.3 cM. This person also tested at AncestryDNA. I took a guess as to who the match might be at AncestryDNA. I picked Ryan. However, he doesn’t have a very good tree at Ancestry. I found a Shared match with Ryan who does have a good tree. Rox-Ann’s Tree has Jury and Webber:
That only narrows down Gladys’ tree to her maternal and we are still in Devon.
Summary and Conclusion
I did some poking around and it seemed like there could be a connection between Gladys and Jonn in Devon.
I wasn’t sure that the DNA connection that Gladys and Jonn had was on the side of Jonn’s tree where he was looking.
Jonn could do a shared match analysis with Gladys at Gedmatch. If he could identify one of those shared DNA matches, he could figure out on which side of his tree he and Gladys match. This would narrow down where to look.
I was able to narrow down that Jonn and Gladys match on Gladys’ maternal side. I had already assumed that based on the fact that most of Gladys’ paternal side was from Ireland. Gladys’ maternal side as far as I know is from Devon, England.
I recently noticed a good match I had with Iain at 23andMe. 23andMe predict that Iain and I are 2nd cousins. Fortunately Iain put down some of his family names:
My names are on the left and Iain’s are on the right.
I recognized Rathfulder as a form of Rathfelder. I had already written a Blog on Donna and what was our almost certain relationship. Here is how Donna fits in on my Rathfelder tree:
Here I have added in Iain. He would be Donna’s brother or cousin. Donna did mention that she had a cousin. This shows that Iain is a second cousin once removed to me. Here is my grandfather Alexander Rathfelder on the left and Iain’s great-grandfather Leo Rathfelder on the right:
Donna tested at AncestryDNA. Iain tested at 23andMe. One difference between the two companies is that AncestryDNA does not show detailed DNA matching and 23andMe does. That means that I can compare Iain’s DNA matches with other Rathfelder matches.
My DNA Match with Iain
My DNA match with Iain represents the DNA we both got from our two common ancestors. Those common ancestors are Johann Heinrich Rathfelder born 1846 and his wife Maria E.L. Gangnus born in 1856. Heinrich and Maria were born in the German Colony of HIrschenhof in Latvia. They had nine children in Hirschenhof. Some time between 1890 and 1894 the couple moved to Riga, Latvia where they had their last two children Alexander and Leonhard.
Here is how 23andMe shows my DNA match with Iain:
Those DNA matches look like this in table form:
I can add these matches to my master match list. I can also paint these matches onto my Chromosome map.
DNA Painting Iain
Here is what I have painted so far using an on-line tool called DNA Painter:
This shows all my matches. I’m about 38% painted. Here is just my maternal side where I get my Rathfelder DNA:
Here I am only 28% painted. Iain and I will match on the orange segments. Normally, DNA Painter only adds segments at 7 cM and above. However, there are a few matches I have with Iain just below that cutoff that I want to add:
The differences are difficult to see, but this brings my painted (or identified) DNA up to 39% overall and up to 30% on my maternal side. Not many new orange segments have been added, but segments have been expanded or filled in:
Above is a more detailed view of Chromosome 3. Iain has added to the match that I have with Anita. Iain has also filled in a space in the next segment. Iain does not share DNA with Otis that Inese and Anita do. This would represent more ancient DNA. Otis and I match on the Schwechheimer and Gangnus ancestry. This could mean that even though Iain also has Schwechheimer and Gangnus ancestors, Iain didn’t get the same Schwechheimer/Gangnus DNA at this portion of his Chromosome 3. Nigel and Carolyn above represent DNA that I got from my mother that would not match with Iain because it is on my mother’s non-Rathfelder maternal Lentz/Nicholson side.
Iain and DNA Triangulation
As shown above, Anita and Iain both match me in overlapping segments on Chromosome 3. This suggests DNA triangulation which means the three of us share common ancestors. Those common ancestors are here:
The same thing happens with Catherine and Iain on Chromosome 7:
Iain will match Catherine, Anita and Inese more closely than he matches me as Iain is a 2nd cousin to Anita and Inese and 1st cousin once removed to Catherine. This will show if Iain uploads his DNA results to Gedmatch Genesis for comparison.
Summary and Conclusions
DNA has tied together Rathfelder descendants in the US (my family), the UK (Catherine, Donna and Iain) and Latvia (Anita and Inese).
Iain tested at 23andMe. His results show specifically how our DNA matches and where. This allows for some DNA comparison.
The DNA that Iain and I share represents our common ancestors Johann Heinrich Rathfelder and Maria Elisabeth Laura Gangnus.